In this powerful conversation, autistic therapist and author Jessica Penot, LPC-S, opens up about masking, conformity, and what it really means to thrive as an autistic adult. Jessica Penot, LPC-S is the founder of Tree of Life Behavioral Health and the Neuroaffirmative Autism Resource Center, as well as the author of “The Unmasking Workbook for Autistic Adults.” She breaks down the hidden “taxes of conformity” that autistic people pay every day, the serious mental health toll of masking, and the eye-opening “double empathy problem” that reframes how we think about autistic and neurotypical communication.
Jeffrey Snyder, Broadcast Retirement Network
Well, Jessica, it’s great to see you. Thanks for joining us on the program this morning.
No, thank you for having me. You know, as I was saying to you in the virtual green room, I find, you know, we tried to cover a lot of different topics, topics that beyond retirement and finance that really have an impact on Americans. And I thought that the piece that you wrote on the importance of social skills and conformity really spoke to me as somebody who lived through high school and college and now is an adult.
I guess my first question is we are faced as, not just Americans, but as adults with this having to conform to social norms.
Jessica Penot, LPC-S, Tree of Life Behavioral Health / Neuroaffirmative Autism Resource Center
I mean, I think it’s probably the one of the most pivotal points of success in our lives, right? Is do you fit in with the, you know, graduate school, get a decent job, start saving for retirement early, stay out of debt, buy a home in a nice neighborhood so your kids can go to a decent school. And, you know, if you pay all these taxes of conformity, then you can, I guess, retire nicely, right?
So, and all those things are dependent on, you know, how well you can get along and do in job interviews. How long, how well you do in school, how well, and all of this is do your professors like you, do the people around you like you. So if you don’t conform or fit in, you’re at a complete disadvantage from the beginning of your life.
Jeffrey Snyder, Broadcast Retirement Network
Yeah, and I would say, you know, as someone who, I don’t know if I’m a nonconformist, you know, I like to do my own thing, but I also liked, I know I want to get along. I would imagine that people maybe who fall into that category, maybe they might appear different to the regular people or the normal people, but they want to get along with people. I’ve never met somebody, maybe some people who are like sociopathic, but I don’t recall meeting any of them, but candidly, I think most people want to get along with other people.
Jessica Penot, LPC-S, Tree of Life Behavioral Health / Neuroaffirmative Autism Resource Center
Well, and you know, I wrote the article from the perspective of autism, which is uniquely relevant, right? Because most autistic people desperately, you know, they may not love being in crowds of people, but they desperately want to be accepted and liked. They don’t like the fact that they stand out and are different and a lot of times disliked.
They want to get along. They just don’t have the code or, you know, I’m autistic too, so we don’t have the code to figure out how to interact with neurotypicals in a way that’s pleasing to them. So there’s a lot of effort going in.
It just, you know, you just don’t know how.
Jeffrey Snyder, Broadcast Retirement Network
So there’s a lot of effort on the, with folks that have autism to belong, but don’t you think that it’s a two-way street that, as you put it, neurotypicals, you know, you should want to include, you know? I think, you know, you want to get along with people. I mean, it’s no sense in trying to work, you know, I’m thinking about if you’re building a team of people as an employer, you want the team to work together.
So I would think the teammates would want to work. So isn’t it kind of, they have a responsibility as well to kind of meet the other person halfway?
Jessica Penot, LPC-S, Tree of Life Behavioral Health / Neuroaffirmative Autism Resource Center
I mean, and that’s kind of the crux of all my work. So, you know, I wrote a book called The Unmasking Workbook for Autistic Adults, and I’m working on an app called Glimmer Nest. And all of these tools that I’m building for autistic adults are based on this, like, huge amount of research that shows that autistic adults have very high suicide rates and very short lifespans.
And if you take away what’s called masking or is popularly known as masking, which is pretending to be neurotypical, all those things kind of decline a lot. So if autistic people can just be their weird selves, they can usually be happy and balanced. So, and accomplishing that is entirely built on the fact that neurotypicals will work with them to accept them as their weird self.
But then there’s this other bit of research out there that shows that naturally neurotypicals don’t usually like autistic people. They find us a little abrasive. You know, we don’t make eye contact.
A lot of things that neurotypicals use as metrics of what is good or honest, autistic people just naturally don’t do. Like you always hear, you know, people say, you know, you can tell somebody is a sociopath because they don’t make eye contact. Well, neither does an autistic person.
So naturally we do a lot of things that normals find or neurotypicals find off-putting. But then, so there’s this theory called the double empathy. The double empathy problem.
And that theory states that the natural solution is that we both autistic people and neurotypical people have to kind of work together to understand each other. And only there can peace be found for like for both groups, if that makes sense. So the answer to your question in a very complicated way is yes.
The only answer is for everybody to work together. And even though we’re different, find a way to get along.
Jeffrey Snyder, Broadcast Retirement Network
You know, maybe when I was a younger person, I maybe thought one way. But I think as I’ve gotten older, I think I’ve learned to be more accepting of other people because let’s face it, Jessica, we’re all unique. And I would say I probably have quirks that people would tell you, you know, that maybe don’t necessarily fit in to social norms.
So are there some lessons here? You wrote a great piece. Are there some lessons here?
Let’s start with employers because I think that people who are neurodivergent would benefit, they have a lot of skills that would benefit employers. So are there some lessons for employers looking to hire maybe this population of people into their organization?
Jessica Penot, LPC-S, Tree of Life Behavioral Health / Neuroaffirmative Autism Resource Center
I mean, I think the lesson is adaptability, right? That there isn’t just one right and one wrong answer to everything. Like, especially because, you know, again, I work mostly with neurodivergent autistic people.
Like autistic people tend to, they can be excellent at doing things like even better than neurotypical sometimes, but they work with different patterns. So for example, a lot of autistic people can work like three or four times as hard or accomplish three or four times as much as a neurotypical on a project in a very short period of time. So they can get the whole thing done if it’s like a project that’s meant to take a year and like three or four months, but then they need to rest a lot afterwards.
So, you know, they might have accomplished a year’s worth of work in three months, but then they might need like a three week break afterwards. And like nine to five work schedules do not accommodate that pacing. And that’s one example of pacing, but there’s lots of different types of pacing.
So I think as an, and I own a private practice myself. So the way I work it for the people that work here is I let people work at their own pace as long as the job is accomplished. So I think the lesson is about being adaptable and finding people’s strengths and realizing there’s not one right or wrong answer.
You know, another example is that most autistic people hate open workspaces, which has become the norm for most businesses now, and it makes them less productive. So being adaptive to say that some people might need closed in offices or private spaces to function, I think would help employers, you know, make space for people that function on different levels.
Jeffrey Snyder, Broadcast Retirement Network
Yeah, look, I think you bring up a, look, in a world where unemployment, the unemployment rates look like at 4%, so that is technically considered to be full employment, meaning it’s very difficult to find workers for small businesses, for large businesses, you name it, it’s hard. I would wanna look, open myself to a greater pool of candidates. And yes, I think that the team, people should get along.
You know, obviously you don’t want hand in combat in an organization, but at the same time, you know, you have to be, I think people need to be, you know, accepting of one another. Let me ask you in terms of, I know you’re a therapist, how would you advise somebody maybe who is an adult today? I’m not asking you to give advice, but I mean, should they seek out a counselor or someone like yourself to help guide them through the employment process or guide them through what is arguably very difficult process?
Jessica Penot, LPC-S, Tree of Life Behavioral Health / Neuroaffirmative Autism Resource Center
I mean, I think there’s lots of different paths to seek guidance. I mean, these days I know there’s also a lot of like, good employment coaches that do, I mean, I have, I’ve had a couple of clients lately that have had, because you know, I’m not trained as a counselor. You know, I specialize in trauma and autism and how to seek employment.
I’ve seen some amazing employment coaches take clients I’ve had that are struggling and really like help them find employment in new ways. You know, I think it’s just finding the person that matches your needs. Like, cause if you’re autistic, you need to make sure you’re with somebody who is neuroaffirmative and knows what it is to be autistic.
Cause there’s a lot of discrimination against specifically autistic behaviors in the workplace. But if you’re neurotypical, finding a job coach that knows your field, I think sometimes can even be better than a therapist, honestly, not to diminish my field, but.
Jeffrey Snyder, Broadcast Retirement Network
Well, I think, you know, maybe it’s a stepped approach. You serve a very important role, but then maybe someone else can kind of take it from another perspective to help people. And ultimately at the end of the day, I think you’re trying to achieve the same means to the same end.
Jessica, we’re gonna have to leave it there. Really, really great piece. It’s something people should think about.
I think, I do think society is starting to change a little bit, although it looks like it’s gonna take some more time. Thanks for joining us. And look, we look forward to having you back on the program again very soon.
Jessica Penot, LPC-S, Tree of Life Behavioral Health / Neuroaffirmative Autism Resource Center
Thank you.
