In this episode, we are joined by Dr. Wendy L. Patrick, J.D., M.Div., Ph.D., career prosecutor, author, and media commentator, for a powerful conversation on reframing how we think about aging and retirement. Dr. Patrick challenges outdated beliefs about growing older, explaining why your career is not your identity, why the years ahead can be your most fulfilling, and how a shift in mindset can transform the next chapter of your life.
Transcript:
Jeffrey Snyder, Broadcast Retirement Network
Wendy, thank you so much for joining us. Really appreciate you coming on the program this morning.
Dr. Wendy L. Patrick, J.D., M.Div., Ph.D., career prosecutor, author, and media commentator
Thank you so much, Jeff. It’s a pleasure to be with you.
Jeffrey Snyder, Broadcast Retirement Network
It’s absolutely our pleasure. And I love, you know, we found you obviously on psychology today. You continue to write great columns about aging and retirement.
We’re gonna try to talk about all those things in this conversation. Let me start with a basic question. Does aging, does our aging have to be painful?
Does it have to be something where we lose complete control? Because I think a lot of people are out there right now worried about getting older.
Dr. Wendy L. Patrick, J.D., M.Div., Ph.D., career prosecutor, author, and media commentator
Yeah, you know, Jeff, it’s funny you ask it that way because you are correct. When you talk about retirement, people always think about, well, gosh, that’s something you do when you’re at an age where you should probably just take it easy. Most people nowadays retire to live their best life.
They retire because they wanna travel and have a new adventure or try something different. They retire for a variety of reasons. And in fact, I like the way you asked it because Jeff, getting older is not about retiring from working.
It’s about having the luxury, if you will, of thinking about what you would like to do. That normally ends up being a combination of personal and professional endeavors. And if you think about it that way, you know, in the Bible, we say, you know, gray hair is a crown of glory.
It’s a sign of wisdom, of life experience, of kind of taking a break from the grind of a daily job in order to be able to experience your best life. So if you think about it that way, getting older really doesn’t have to be any kind of a downside.
Jeffrey Snyder, Broadcast Retirement Network
You know, I love that mentality because I wanna follow up on that and ask you, don’t you think the mentality or the focus on retirement, people have changed? It’s no longer sitting in that rocking chair with the grandkids or playing the golf, right? I mean, that was the, I think of like my grandparents.
So when I was a kid in 1972 or in 77, when Star Wars came out, my grandparents were in their 60s. They don’t look like a 60, they didn’t look like what a 60 year old looks like now. So don’t you think the perspective has changed as technology, as healthcare, everything has improved over the last 50 years, five decades?
Dr. Wendy L. Patrick, J.D., M.Div., Ph.D., career prosecutor, author, and media commentator
Absolutely. You know, we talk about 80 is the new 60, 60 is the new 80, and we talk about- I said 50 is the new 20. 50 is the new 20.
But Jeff, why do we say that? That’s your interesting perspective. I think that’s right.
We say that because we live in a day and age where we’re able to look and feel better older in life. And that’s true because of medical technologies being improved. It’s true because of digital technologies being improved.
It’s true because there are so many services available today that weren’t there for our grandparents. You know, the grandparents are not in a rocking chair somewhere knitting a sweater. They are out on the beach.
They’re climbing a mountain. They’re doing things that they’re able to do because they feel good. They look good.
They have the financial security to be able to retire from one job and then maybe take another job to, you know, enjoy the extra income because they want to do it. And I don’t just mean driving for Uber or Lyft. I mean, having jobs that give them the freedom to be able to set their own schedules.
And there’s such a variety of jobs available nowadays, post-pandemic probably now more than ever. So it is true that aging also includes finding your new identity and also feeling good while you explore this brave new chapter in life.
Jeffrey Snyder, Broadcast Retirement Network
And to that point, Wendy, do you think that, you know, it used to be a stigma with mature, I call them mature people because I’m one of them, right? You know, and I can relate when I was 20 years old starting my vocation, you know, you always think you know more than the people that came before you, but do you think that stigma of maturity, senior living has also maybe evaporated as a result of some of these mindset changes?
Dr. Wendy L. Patrick, J.D., M.Div., Ph.D., career prosecutor, author, and media commentator
I think it’s evaporated as a result of mindset changes and policy changes. Because think about how establishments define a senior nowadays. They have lowered that age to qualify for senior discounts from 65 to 60 to 55 to 50.
In other words, there’s such blurred boundaries as to what it really means to be, to fit within any particular category. You’re right, we do say mature. And what I would say, you know, what not only does age come with wisdom, but age comes with the kind of credibility that you simply don’t have if you’re a 20 something.
I mean, think about it. If you were gonna find a new doctor, dentist, therapist, you wouldn’t find somebody necessarily coming straight out of school. You would want somebody that’s been around for decades that knows what they’re doing, that has that track record of competence.
Not to say, you know, we all have to start somewhere, but there is nothing about being older that necessarily means you’re gonna be a poorer worker. If anything, you’re better because you’ve hit your stride. You know what you’re doing and you have the confidence to be able to do your job well, whatever it is.
Jeffrey Snyder, Broadcast Retirement Network
Let’s talk about empowerment or getting the control back. Cause you wrote about that in one of your pieces, you know, having the control as you age. And I think a lot of people, obviously you can’t control your cells, that you can’t control yourself on a cellular level.
I don’t, not yet, at least we’ll have to talk, we’ll have to talk to Brian Johnson about that. Who’s the very famous guy who’s trying to break the aging DNA rule book, I guess, right. But in all seriousness, how do we empower ourselves?
Cause I think a lot of people are watching this and I think the message resonates. So how do you take the message that we’re talking about that you’re really talking about, not me and change it up so that you’re empowered, you’re in control of the next 50 years of your life.
Dr. Wendy L. Patrick, J.D., M.Div., Ph.D., career prosecutor, author, and media commentator
You’re in control when you recognize that your destiny is yours, your faith, your family, your circle of friends, that is much more important than your former occupation. Jeff, this is a huge point. For some people, occupation is identity.
And those are the people that really drag their heels when it comes to deciding to retire, because they feel as if, wrongly, but nonetheless, very authentically, they feel like they’re going to be giving up their identity and then they won’t know who they are. The empowerment you’re talking about means you embrace the fact that you are much more than what you did as a living. You live to work or you work to live.
We always say one or the other. But if you recognize that you are in control of the next 50 or however many years you’re going to be here, you can think through what you wanna do. I mean, the beauty of so many different occupations nowadays is that they offer an off ramp.
In other words, you can join associations that are designed for retired painters, bankers, lawyers, doctors, that embrace the fact that you can take that knowledge, then do something else. Maybe you’re a consultant. Maybe you’re an expert witness.
Maybe you volunteer services and technology and expertise that you have, even though you’ve left your profession that allows you to maintain that identity. Now, I know a lot of people that will say, put me in a lounge chair on the beach. I’m not interested in any of that.
But if identity has been a big part of why you’ve been reluctant to retire, thank God there are those options available for you. We have the internet to open up a world where you can retire comfortably through each lane in any lane you choose to take.
Jeffrey Snyder, Broadcast Retirement Network
Let me ask you about, and thank you for that. Let me ask you about lessons for employers. Do you think employers of all sizes, whether they’re small businesses, midsize or large, are they learning some of these lessons too?
I have to think that they would love to tap into the people that we’re talking about or that more importantly you’re talking about this morning.
Dr. Wendy L. Patrick, J.D., M.Div., Ph.D., career prosecutor, author, and media commentator
Not as quickly as I would like, because too often you see they’re asking all the right questions at an exit interview when those are the questions they should be asking when onboarding new employees. Tell me about a bad boss. What’s your idea of a great boss?
What’s important to you in a workplace? Because I’ll tell you, new employees, Jeff, as you and I both know, they’re interested in different things than we were. They’re interested in work-life balance, in having benefits, whether it’s a gym membership, dry cleaning.
It’s amazing, they’re bringing to the table much of what most of us wish we had when we were employed. But we wait too long to learn these things. We learn when they leave, why they left, and we think to ourselves, why didn’t we ask those questions on the front end?
Because we would have liked to be able to retain that talent. So more than ever today, employers are slowly recognizing that if they want to be that workplace that attracts the most valuable employees, they have to portray themselves as such, whether it’s using social media, whether it’s using word of mouth, going out into the community. But yes, they are learning the lessons that in order to keep talent, they have to attract that talent to begin with.
Jeffrey Snyder, Broadcast Retirement Network
So it’s more than the 401k and health benefits. Is it things like caregiving? Because let’s face it, all of us are either gonna receive caregiving, I hint to my wife, or are gonna be giving caregiving, right?
I mean, we’re all gonna be in that situation. So is that a benefit that employers should be thinking about as we have an aging society, an aging America?
Dr. Wendy L. Patrick, J.D., M.Div., Ph.D., career prosecutor, author, and media commentator
Absolutely, and in fact, I remember when different companies started extending paternity leave. Remember that, Jeff? That wasn’t a thing decades ago.
But once they started recognizing all the different ways that we caregive, whether it’s for newborns or aging parents or needing time off, we have certain types of leave that never existed before. So yes, employers are recognizing that we do need, we call it personal leave or sick leave other. The other can be anyone for whom you caregive, and you don’t need to belong to any particular age bracket to qualify because we all know people have special needs, relatives in their family that they have to attend to.
So yes, employers have waded into that pool, thank God, because what are they doing? They are able to not only retain talent, but be flexible with work schedules. Maybe somebody is able to telework if they have the luxury to do that because they have caregiving responsibilities, but it’s not full-time around the clock.
So that kind of flexibility, that type of creativity is not only allowing employers to keep valuable employees, but attracts winning and talented employees because they make it a much more productive place to work.
Jeffrey Snyder, Broadcast Retirement Network
You know, Wendy, our show isn’t political, but we do talk about policy. And I wanna ask you, you’ve had some good advice for employers. I think they’re learning, hopefully they learn quicker, but policy makers at the local, state, and federal level, this is a big deal because you and I are in a category, me, probably more than you are in categories, that there are gonna be a lot more of us as we get older.
Are they, meaning the policy makers, the regulators, are they looking at this and what can they do better to address some of the concerns that we may have as we age?
Dr. Wendy L. Patrick, J.D., M.Div., Ph.D., career prosecutor, author, and media commentator
They can listen. When you listen to what employees are saying is important, when you listen to reasons that people retire at different times or leave jobs or switch firms or switch careers, you learn. I mean, listen and learn.
And that’s one of the ways in which policy makers can decide how to craft policy because if it doesn’t work, you’re not going to be elected, whatever party you belong to. You know, it’s like the same thing we talk about every election cycle. Who am I going to vote for that’s going to make life better for me and my family?
So it’s everything from healthcare to schools, to education, to the economy, gas, groceries. Who’s gonna make my life better and how do I know that? I don’t know that because somebody simply, you know, knows the right talking points.
I know that because of what I said for a living. I’ve been a lawyer for 30 years, prove it. Show me something that you can point to that proves that you’re able to do what you say.
So if policy makers are listening, they’re gonna know what to say and what to do.
Jeffrey Snyder, Broadcast Retirement Network
There you go. I mean, that’s great political advice, even though we’re not a political show. I know you’re also a prolific author.
In addition to writing in psychology today, you’re a New York Times bestselling author. Are there any secrets you can kind of leak out on maybe your next or tell us, we won’t tell anybody about maybe some of your next book ideas that we can expect to see on the New York Times bestselling list?
Dr. Wendy L. Patrick, J.D., M.Div., Ph.D., career prosecutor, author, and media commentator
Well, my last book was a Christian book. It was actually related to my psychology day column, why bad looks good, biblical living and the wisdom you learn from reading the Bible. And so there’s really a great crossover from all the places that we learn how to live better, how to be smarter, how to be more situationally aware.
You probably know one of my other past books is called Red Flags. So there’s a lot that I’m continuing to look into in terms of what sort of cutting edge issues do people care about today? Another thing politicians can learn from, what’s on the cutting edge that people wanna know more about?
So anything that’s edgy, that’s provocative, that’s useful for healthy living, keep an eye on that for my next endeavor.
Jeffrey Snyder, Broadcast Retirement Network
All right, we’re gonna check it out. I’ll be scouring the, well, I was gonna say Amazon, Bart. I’m gonna get them all credited in the local booksellers.
Wendy, we’re gonna have to leave it there. It’s a great piece, great column that you write. Thanks so much for joining us.
And we look forward to having you back on the program again very soon.
Dr. Wendy L. Patrick, J.D., M.Div., Ph.D., career prosecutor, author, and media commentator
Thanks for having me, Jeff, and thanks for what you do.
